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Podcast: Privacy and Transparency in Digital Advertising Data with Ionut Ciobotaru

NetWise Jan 5, 2022 7:12:20 PM
Data-Driven Marketing - Privacy and Transparency in Digital Advertising Data

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Show Notes:

Web developer, blogger, entrepreneur & Co-CEO of Verve Group, Ionut Ciobotaru popped by the Data Basement to chat with Brian and Adam about data privacy, RTB, blockchain and such. Verve Group is a privacy-first omni-channel ad platform offering programmatic solutions that connect advertisers and publishers to people in real time. Here are some highlights:
  • Privacy- starts w transparency and consumer-first approach.
  • Consumers only understand what they see right now.
  • Some parts of data should never be shared.
  • Why do we care about privacy?
  • How often are cookies used improperly?
  • Transparency and control matter the most. People care differently about sharing their info at different times.
  • There needs to be consensus on the topic of privacy between advertisers, agencies and consumers. It's a business and cultural issue.
  • First party data needs to be improved so it's more valuable.
  • "Innovation is born out of constraint" - Ionut Ciobotaru
  • Consumers should be able to control their privacy across all apps, all system and the open web.
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Transcript:

Adam Kerpelman:

Yeah. So sports have, I've been an athlete my whole life, even the ones that just kind of amateurs do, there's a concept of an off season where it's like, okay, it's winter in most of the country right now, so nobody's going to be training for triathlons. And it makes the whole thing cyclical, and really in a way that I think is very human and realistic, honestly, in terms of how it fits with our lives. Should we just have all of December off from work?

Ionut Ciobotaru:

I live in Berlin, so I would take December, January, maybe even February. It's very cold. It's very dark. It's very gray. I would go somewhere else on an island somewhere sunny. So I would take that off. And also, advertising generates the slow month, sometimes. People are shoving their budgets. I mean, if I had a choice, I might as well.

Adam Kerpelman:

Hey everybody. This is Data-Driven Marketer, sponsored by NetWise. I'm Adam.

Brian Jones:

I'm Brian.

Ionut Ciobotaru:

And I'm Ionut.

Adam Kerpelman:

Welcome back for another hang in the data basement. Thanks for joining us. And special thanks to our guest this week. Ionut, as you heard, whose last name I've been advised not to even try to pronounce. If you want to go ahead and do it, which I can appreciate as one with the last name that has never pronounced properly.

Ionut Ciobotaru:

It's true about that.

Adam Kerpelman:

Fair enough. I'm totally not going to try. Good call, sir.

Adam Kerpelman:

Ionut is the co CEO of Verve, which is a privacy first omnichannel marketing platform, I believe. Did I get that right? Omnichannel, multi-channel, we could maybe even talk about the difference on the podcast. Anyway. Thank you for joining us. Do you want to tell us a little bit about Verve and how you ended up there? Running the show.

Ionut Ciobotaru:

Yeah. Thanks. It's been quite a right. So Verve Group is part of MGI, which is Media and Games Invest, which is a listed company, both in Germany and Stockholm, Nasdaq Premier. And I actually joined through the acquisition of my company, PubNative and Mobile SSP, a few years ago. And since then we've been, let's say executing on the build and buy strategy that our group has, and acquiring assets, basically building blocks that we put together towards our vision, which is to watch a mission privacy first and online channel. So what we're trying to achieve is create an integrated, vertically integrated at tech stack from the demand side, with the DSP, with the DMP, and the SSP, of course. But that's an online channel stack. So horizontally expand across mobile web and connected TV.

Ionut Ciobotaru:

We believe that that's how the future is going to look like in a world with less identifies, and each of the channels where you actually need to look holistically, both for, let's say, upper funnel metrics, lower funnel metrics. And again, to your point in terms of privacy first, that's I would say core to our value prop, in the sense that if you look at what happens with the cookies, what happens with the IDFA, there are constraints both on the regulatory side and platform side that brands, and consumers need to navigate, because I live in Europe and we have pop-ups, it's basically pop-up heaven now. Every website you open every day, I don't know how many pop-ups I press, I call sent to, but probably more than I see ads, I would say. So I think that the cure was worse than the disease, I would say.

Brian Jones:

For sure.

Adam Kerpelman:

Well, I mean, we deal with it in the States as well, because the easiest answer it's just put it everywhere. A lot of companies in the US, the default is now just follow the EU rules, because it's the easiest. You just jump through the right hoop and you never have to answer the questions that you're worried about.

Ionut Ciobotaru:

Yeah. But I don't think that was the right approach. And now everyone is following it. But nobody's questioning it. It's like, why is that? Is that the right way? I do believe in privacy, and I don't believe consumers should have a choice. And we should it not spread a data or should encrypt it, keep it on device or not storage it if it's not needed. So consumers choice should be first agreed. But then how you implement and how do you think about the rest of the ecosystem? The execution was not there in terms of GDPR. I was there when it happened, 2018, and we had to rebuild infrastructure and everything. And then yeah, US is copying it, and now other countries, even Brazil, I think China is doing it. But I think people should take a step back. Even Europe now is considering, hey, we heard small businesses and independent companies, and we gave more powers to the world guardians, Facebook and Google's. Now they're taking a step back, I think UK first. But well, after two years, thank you very much.

Brian Jones:

So I would love to dig in a little bit to just the word privacy. Because when that's sort of been the catchall term for everything that's going on, but I think it actually encapsulates a whole bunch of other stuff. Like for instance, a bunch of the things you just listed are actually transparency, right? It was a big part of it. And there's a lot of other stuff that's kind of rolled up in there. What is in that concept for you? Both from sort of the business side, or the publisher side, and then from a consumer side or a buyer side, who's interacting with all this stuff.

Ionut Ciobotaru:

So the way, you actually nailed it with transparency. I think that's where it starts. And it definitely starts with the consumer. It's consumer first approach. And from my point of view, the consumer only understands what he sees right now. So if you're an advertiser, you are [inaudible 00:05:57] and you ask for the email address, they will understand, "Hey, I need it for communication. I need to send you the bill. I need to store data, and personalize the experience or offer a more rich experience", right? So first part, they don't have the advertiser side. Same on the publisher either, you're an app, or you're a broadcaster, or a publisher, news publisher. They would understand it once you go on the website and you establish that one to one communication. So I think it starts with transparency.

Ionut Ciobotaru:

I'm not a strong believer in third party data and broadcasting first party data. Well, first party data across different third parties, a hundred third parties, in some examples, if you look at what's happening right now in the ecosystem. I do believe in the second party, right? When you have first party and another first party, and then you match it in a clean room, and that's encrypted and safe. That's also fine as long as there's no leakage between the parts. So I do think it starts with transparency, and I do think it starts with the consumer. And there are other parts to privacy, which parts of the data should never be shared. Actually, should probably not even be stored in a certain way. So there are sensitive, let's say data categories that should never be stored, sent, even first party maybe should be encrypted by default.

Ionut Ciobotaru:

And I'm not talking passwords, but I'm talking other sensitive information. Medical data and things like this. Then, what is tracking? Everyone interprets tracking as this subset of privacy, and everyone makes their own interpretation of that, from the EU government to Apple. That's another question I don't have a precise answer, but I can say there's more questions than answers.

Adam Kerpelman:

That's a little the direction I was going to take it, which is almost like, I think we're probably on the same page regarding the privacy measure that should exist. But Brian likes to throw a thought experiment at me whenever we talk about it, which is mainly to say, well, why do we care, though? One step above, what is privacy? And sort of everything you outlined. When we talk about defending privacy or caring about privacy, it's a very visceral thing. There's a reason it's part of Apple's, like ad campaigns right now. Right? What are we talking about?

Ionut Ciobotaru:

I think there are two part. First, I think it's a very, very good question. Yeah. I think it's a very, very good question. And I think it has two answers. And one of the answers is the question. And I would start with the question. How many times has, let's say a cookie ID, or even a DFA, has been used for bad purposes, and is known and got in the media? I don't really know that many cases. There was an experiment in France following Macron and things like this, but I haven't seen it being used for so many nefarious purposes. It is now portrayed in the media, right? Everyone, you move for cookies, it's tracking people across websites, and they're going to see the same ad three times. And it's not as easy as people think to actually track users for nefarious purpose. That's one part.

Ionut Ciobotaru:

So the question is, is it really that bad? That's the question. Another first answer is, I think as people, when we think about our rights, we think of intimacy and privacy. We don't want to share. There's certain information we want to share and certain information we want to keep to ourselves, even towards our personal lives and our cycle friends. That's natural to us. And now we look at that from that perspective, right? And of course, Apple is a brand taps into that part, but ignore in the second part, which is, hey, is it really that bad? Does something that bad happen on the Apple platform with the DFA? No, people were just selling ads. Businesses were driving on Facebook and other ad networks. People were downloading games. I mean, it's hard to see the bad or the evil in that.

Ionut Ciobotaru:

And they're tapping. So they're tapping the first to, let's say, benefit themselves, or position themselves closer to users. Because if you think about the consumers, right? If you think about the brand, you actually tap into emotional states, right? Not necessarily rational data points. And privacy was left alone, I would say, by the other tech players. And they saw the niche. And at the same time, now they start an ad business. So it's just like, win, win, win for them. Yeah. Smart move, what can I say?

Brian Jones:

Yeah, I tend to think of privacy. The things that really end up mattering, I think are transparency and control. Because ultimately privacy is really complicated in that the question Adam just asked, why do we care? Or who cares? It's different for everybody. And it's different at different times. I care differently about different types of information. And I care differently at different times a week, depending on the moment. Sometimes I'm happy to see ads, or happy to have my information get used by a business to do something. Other times I want one thing shut off. There's certain information I don't want to share. Like you said, medical information, right? There I feel very private about. I just feel exposed, right? Maybe that doesn't matter. Maybe everyone else in the world doesn't.

Brian Jones:

But if I have the option to control it, I know what's going on and I have some control, that feels like it's really starting to touch on the solution to what's going on here. And that those two seem to be the areas that we as the business operators and the technologists can really touch, and where kind of the dials should be. Whereas privacy is such an abstract concept and it's so broad. I feel like it sort of cheapens the conversation, especially in the media, right? The public discourse about it.

Ionut Ciobotaru:

What I wanted to add there is that both transparency and control can be put on, what I would look at in identity gradient, where sometimes you just have context, and it's real time, and it disappears when it's not valuable anymore. Sometimes you have storage that you keep the data because it's fine and it'll help you further. Sometimes you don't even have neither, and it's fully anonymized, because in some parts you should not have access data, or the control says, the user says, "I don't want to give that part of my data away". So yeah, that's an interesting way to put it. And we could have a lever for the consumer to choose where it wants to be, maybe across different channels, right? You can choose your privacy settings on the mobile device, on your TV and on your PC, maybe in the browser. And broadcast those privacy settings across both publishers and advertisers supply and demand side.

Ionut Ciobotaru:

And then they of course should have the right to inform you better. Hey, I need this because of that. And that's a proper value exchange. Actually, in Mobile that has been the case, not for the privacy related topics, but for notification, or maybe location, you would only get it as an app if there was a use case to use it. So if you're no one at the app, you need it. But if you're a game, which is not Pokemon Go, then you don't need it. But if you're Pokemon go, then you don't need it.

Brian Jones:

Good example.

Adam Kerpelman:

The thing I think is interesting when you start to talk about the challenge of... You put it really well, like future proofing, the ad agency, or the ad in the advertising industry. A lot of this stuff isn't new if you look to other aspects of even the same industries. Because when you talk about, you look at how much entertainment is supported by ads, network, television, all that kind of stuff. All the intellectual property tied up in those entertainment things, has all kinds of weird publishing control clauses.

Adam Kerpelman:

There's whole companies called publishers that control all these annoying levers, and it's what entertainment lawyers fight about. And the idea of a sunset clause. You're allowed to use this song in your piece of television for this amount of time, and I'm going to get at 90% of the royalty for the first two years, then I'm going to get 75% for the next two years, then 60% for the next few years. We're just explaining the decay of a royalty curve, essentially. We already do that stuff. We just keep it all in spreadsheets. I don't want to say it's trivial, but the technology exists now, I think, to put that a layer higher where we can say, look, you can have my email address while I'm signed into the thing. We re-up monthly, so we're good, but as soon as we stop, here's the decay curve on your ability to keep that information, and then it gets you yanked.

Brian Jones:

Along the lines of what you said earlier, you noticed that the technology was stood up in the ecosystem as it exists right now. And it kind of, it enabled us to build these really complex systems. And 10 years ago, certainly 20 years ago, we didn't have the technology to track all that stuff. That was a lot of that was invented to enable modern marketing. It's insane if you see behind the curtain, the amount of information going between systems, and the real timeness of the processing and bidding systems, it's some of the most advanced software and system architecture that we've created as humankind. It's like on the scale of the electrical grid, but in computers. It's just insane communication. So we have a chance now to lean on that technology, to reimagine all it, which we didn't have at the beginning. It was honestly maybe too complicated to think through all of this stuff then. You'd have to invent too many things at once.

Ionut Ciobotaru:

Yeah, exactly. At that point we were not ready. We didn't have the scale of data, not the scale of compute. AI and machine learning was not really a thing 10, 20 years ago. Because you didn't have the computer, you didn't have the internet piece, you didn't have the amount of data we have. But now we do have those. So actually we're in the right spot to reinvent, or go back a bit in the past, and fix it now. To Adam's point though, I don't think it's actually so much of a technology challenge, because we've learned and know how to solve a lot of these things. I think is more of a... How do you say? Getting the consumers on board, getting... How do you say? Consensus between the parties, advertiser, ethic players, publishers. So I think it's more of an industry rally rather than the technology point, because to your point, we solve some of the hardest challenges that we have solved as a human kind in advertising in the current ecosystem. So now I think we need to solve a bit for other challenges.

Brian Jones:

Yeah. It's a business and cultural problem now. Kind of.

Adam Kerpelman:

I was going to ask at the head of a startup in the space, I'm curious how much resistance you run into to the idea that the tech exists. Because my experience of raising money in the tech space has very often been, "Let me explain to you why this thing that you've been hearing about once every 10 years for the last 30 years actually works now". And part of it is for sure, like a dog and pony show of things that I know scientists have been talking about since the eighties. But we really aren't an accelerating curve. New stuff exists every year to try to solve problems we've been trying to solve forever. I wonder how much this is one where, as you get out there, you're still getting the people that are just going. I just don't buy that this is fixable, still. Which is a common...

Ionut Ciobotaru:

We've built...

Adam Kerpelman:

It's commonly what jams up business progress, I think. Because institutions, they huge [inaudible 00:18:05] what they know.

Ionut Ciobotaru:

Well, I have a counterpoint to that. So we've been building ATOM, which is Anonymized Targeting On Mobile devices, which is our only highest audience generation solution, which takes inputs from the device itself, from the app, and from the ads. So contextual information runs a machine learning model on that, and then outputs probabilistic segment, right? Age, gender, and whatever other interests you have based on what you've been doing with your phone, with apps you've been using and where you've been moving. And we've talked to quite a few advertisers and brands as well, as well as publishers, actually, we've seen quite good traction. So I've been on the startup side and I've been an entrepreneur. Actually, this project I work myself with the mobile team and the data science team, and the conversation shifted. People are open to hear and test, because they understand that this challenge is coming.

Ionut Ciobotaru:

Now. We were one of the first to bring this to the market. So I guess we need a few more to make the move. But I think it's moving in the right direction. I'm seeing other companies, even one in Europe, ID5, which they also have a solution more for the web than mobile. But in there I see them gaining traction. So I'm seeing... Actually it's a fertile ground now for startups and new ideas. That's what I would say. Which was not as much the case before. Maybe a tech advertising market were not as hot 10 years ago, or 15 when I started. But now, I think people understand more and they're willing to test more. That's my view currently. But I've been a bit out of the startup world since [inaudible 00:19:45], obviously. I've been delivering new problems.

Adam Kerpelman:

Yeah. Well, I'll say as a technologist, that makes me happy. But ultimately, it makes me wonder if in the data space, the trend we're going to increasingly start to see, is companies coming out of Europe where the laws are tighter around this stuff. Just getting acquired into the bigger players. Because partially, they're all trying to, we talked about this on our cookie last episodes. There are a lot of different players trying to solve this problem at once, but Europe is the only place where there's legitimate pressure that already exists to implement a solution immediately, because the regulations are tighter. That feels like the right kind of pressure to get the type of innovation where you're sort of like, "Oh yeah, that is the answer and we never would've thought of it while we were trying to use the old methods, sort of still because our giant company actually that's kind of what they wish would happen".

Ionut Ciobotaru:

I do think so. I do think so. I mean, I think innovation is born out of constraints, right? Like we discussed about Steve Jobs. So I have three devices, what do I do? Put them all in my pocket and you have the constraints, okay, can I make it one? And then they make a great one. So I do think you have a point there. And I would say there's been a resurgence, I hope that's the word, at tech companies in Europe post GDPR. While GDPR hit us all hard, I would say, we all had to adapt or disappear. And I think, well, it's been like a cleansing fire, you could say.

Brian Jones:

So I'd love to hear your thoughts on what regulations that are coming, and what the shift you're seeing in the industry. What new wonderful, innovative aspects will emerge from this? Because there's always a lot of talk around, how do we fix kind of what feels broken, or unfair, or invasive, right? How do we fix the privacy issues? How do we fix my information being passed around? But what will also come from cleaning that up? What's enabled? That's really exciting. What makes advertising more interesting, or better, or more compelling? What maybe you can sit on top of this infrastructure that makes the web better, and apps better, and smart phones, more engaging. What else do you see there?

Ionut Ciobotaru:

So if you ask me, I think, and it's something that would come on top would be a common control mechanism. Maybe even a protocol such as open RTB that you can control your privacy settings across all apps, all channels, everywhere, right? Not just on Google and Facebook, which you have their own parts, but you should have your own control across your digital footprint, across the web, or open internet, or call it as you may. So I would really hope for that to happen. I don't know where that would sit. Maybe that could be something decentralized, I don't want to give too much fuel for Adam. But I think that's one thing that I'm looking forward to. The other part is how we're looking more into first party data, right? Both on the demand, and the supply, and being much more careful about that, and cognizant, and having that conversation with the consumer we already see some things, but I think there's much more to be done there to enable first party data, to be more valuable, to be worked on. So those are the two points that I'm excited on.

Brian Jones:

So I always have a reaction as I start to think about the world compressing back to a place where first party data is really the only data that people are using, which I conceptually, I like that. I also, there's an aspect to like everyone's data getting passed around and sold, and you can buy more data, places, something doesn't feel right about that. But from a technology perspective, everyone having to manage the same information about me. A million publishers across the world, all needing to engage with me, and get my data, and store it, and process it. It's really inefficient. So then I go back to like, okay, so now we need like a centralized third party authority. And I kind of get lost in this loop. I'm like, "Well, that doesn't feel right either".

Brian Jones:

And then you also made the comment that you're not sure where something like open RTB would sit. And I think you meant like physically in the technology stack of the industry. How do we get that there? And I don't know what my question is, but I just get lost in this loop of like, "That's not right. Wait, that's not right either".

Adam Kerpelman:

I can't not take the blockchain bait at this point. The reason that you feel that way is why people like me are excited about blockchain, because there's aspects of how to do that, that maybe make that the most promising solution to that problem in 20 years. That's all I'll say. Unless anybody wants to go any deeper.

Ionut Ciobotaru:

Yeah, no, I think those are the right questions to ask. Yeah. That's what I would add.

Brian Jones:

Keep it on the rails.

Adam Kerpelman:

If you had the short version of why it makes a difference, is because blockchain lets digital private property exist, which I say that way very deliberately, because I mean, it's literally the same route of the word, right? We have ideas of ownership around physical things that are easy to conceptualize because you keep them in your house, and you lock your door and they belong to you. Data is a thing that if you don't let it flow out there, you can't get the benefit back of sharing that information in the same way. And so it's historically just been binary. It's either private or it's not, sort of. The laws try to do things like HIPAA that creates special use cases, but mostly there's no in-between right now.

Brian Jones:

And we're also, this is another interesting aspect of this, I think. Our personal data, the kind of data about me that's used to sell ad space to me, or to sell ad space to someone who wants to advertise to me, it's not worth enough to me for an economic incentive to really matter to me personally, but an aggregate to publishers and to companies who are advertising, it does fit in the economic model of the world where there isn't an economic incentive. So we can't fix that without more granular economic incentives, which again, is another plug for potential crypto being plugged in here, blockchain. And that's a big problem, right?

Ionut Ciobotaru:

I think economic incentives are our drives of the world. So if we solve it through economic incentives, those two challenges you mentioned about one million publishers owning the data, and selling data on third parties. I think we need to find economic incentives to make the system. Now I do have another challenge on that, is about data ownership. And let's say, Brian posts the pictures, and Adam, you like it, who owns the data? Well, the picture is obviously Brian, but the like, is it yours? Is it Brian's? Who does that part? I do think we're early. So I think we're asking the questions. I don't think we, well, at least I don't have yet the answers, but where we're starting to work on those challenges.

Brian Jones:

Well, kind of take it back to the beginning when you were introducing the Verve Group, you mentioned, I think, that you are building sort of a unified system, right? You've got a DMP, a DSP and an SSP, right? So you're kind of spanning the whole gamut of the tech. And to me, what I think immediately there is, you actually, you own kind of the whole transaction all the way from the consumer, all the way up the consumer, doing something that triggers ad space all the way back through the publisher, to the advertiser, and then back to the consumer again, in a way. So is your strategy there, is the point there kind of, you have more control to make change? Like you kind of control a whole ecosystem there with that?

Ionut Ciobotaru:

Correct. It works much faster this way, the feedback loop. If I want to test something on the publisher space, then I need the data side to fit, let's say, a certain audience, and then I need to sell that to an advertiser. I can do that internally, and it takes us a call, or it takes us, I don't know, an email. When you talk to a third party, there's their roadmap, another quarter and things like this. So it takes too much time to learn and iterate. And we believe that's the more efficient way. Now, the other parties cost, right? If you need to pay every fee all the time on each of the third parties, it's going to cost you more to activate media, or buy better, or get [inaudible 00:28:54].

Ionut Ciobotaru:

So we try to decrease the cost and increase efficiency. That's kind of the thesis there. That's why we have that part. We do work whenever needed. We actually do work not whenever needed, but I would say we work with all the third parties in the ecosystem. So we see ourselves, we call it an open garden. So we have all of these things in house, but we work with all the other major DSPs, because we believe in an open market. So everyone who should choose their tools, both their DMP, their SSP and their DSP of choice. This has been built in house because that's [inaudible 00:29:29], that's what we believe in. But we do work with all the other major players out there. Again, I think we see ourselves as an actor in the open ecosystem. So again, open protocols, even RSDK is the open source. And transparent pricing. So I think that's... Yeah.

Brian Jones:

I love it. I love that vision. It's very complete.

Adam Kerpelman:

So as a place to wrap it up, so we get out of here on time. I'm curious, I can't remember if you mentioned it, or if it's just the thing I saw when we were prepping for the episode, but you have a background in psychology, academically, and I'm always interested when you find someone in a position like you, or even me, or Brian are in. Well, Brian was an engineer, so it makes sense that he's still an engineer. I studied philosophy. Now, often this completely different space of data, and storytelling, and marketing, and whatever. I wonder how much you're, I'm curious how do you feel about the impact of that sort of mentality that comes from studying something that's a little squishier than hard data, necessarily. It's a lot of just talking about feelings and then trying to align them with patterns. My wife is a psychologist, so we talk about this a lot, and it's always funny because we just hit a point where it's sort of like, "Well, yep. That was an interesting study". But still, just talking about human brains, and feelings, and stuff here.

Ionut Ciobotaru:

Great point. That's a great, great point. I don't think psychology as a science is yet there with, let's say, physics, or chemistry, or things along those lines. But what it does is actually goes deeper into the human being and emotions. And I think we're mostly driven by that, right? We don't read studies and we act on that, or sometimes we do, but I think we're human beings we like to be amongst other people, and we take decisions based on the people around us, and our emotions and feelings. And if you look at what advertising tries to do, it tries to influence a bit those emotions, and get you to buy certain things that you need. Hopefully that you need, and that you are looking here for, rather than the things you don't actually need. It's not that unrelated. Yeah. In the end it's working with people, working with yourself, and well, I would say advertising is broadcasting that, or multiplying that, or scaling that.

Adam Kerpelman:

Right. Well, we were talking about it before, and the data points that we're talking about when we talk about privacy and ownership, are literally using, or are described with verbs that are feelings. "Oh, I liked this thing", right? We're literally quantifying and turning into data this thing that before Facebook would've just been, I wear a Pearl Jam t-shirt and now you know that I'm into the same band that you're into, and we just traded this human interaction that sort of...

Brian Jones:

Data was exchanged.

Adam Kerpelman:

Of course it all gets weird once we start to quantify this stuff. Because we're really bad at it. It's humans. Artists and stuff to...

Ionut Ciobotaru:

We need artists to create that data. And I think as an individual, we are unique, but as a group, we start having similar desires and similar actions. And I think that's what advertising does look at groups and group behavior, and act upon that. So we can, let's say, keep our individuality, but still leverage tech for scale, somehow.

Adam Kerpelman:

Awesome. Well, yeah. Thanks for, we're pretty much out of time. So I'll say thank you for joining us. Especially you told us beforehand that you're on holiday in Colombia. So thanks for joining us. [crosstalk 00:33:43]

Ionut Ciobotaru:

Thank you both. I really enjoyed it. I appreciate it.

Adam Kerpelman:

If people want to learn more about Verve, or what you're up to, where can people find you?

Ionut Ciobotaru:

Verve.com, and ic@verve.com. That's the easiest way.

Adam Kerpelman:

Awesome. Great. Well, this has been another episode of the Data-Driven Marketer. Thanks everybody for joining us. I'm Adam.

Brian Jones:

I'm Brian. Take it easy everybody.

Adam Kerpelman:

Oh, also you can find us a Data-Driven pod on Twitter. I got to get better at those end blocks for the people that stuck around.

Brian Jones:

Yeah, [inaudible 00:34:31] sometimes.