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Podcast: Definitions, Metrics, and Sales in Complex Funnels w/ Matt Heinz

NetWise Dec 16, 2021 2:30:18 PM

Show Notes:

Repeat winner of Top 50 Most Influential People in Sales Lead Management and Top 50 Sales & Marketing Influencers, Matt Heinz stopped by the Data Basement to talk with Adam and Brian. Matt is the President and Founder of Heinz Marketing, prolific author, award-winning blogger, podcast host and dynamic speaker. Apparently he makes a killer brisket.
 
A few highlights from the chat:
  • The relationship between sales and marketing isn't easy but it's necessary.
  • Heinz Marketing will ask clients for their Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) & Sales Playbook. Whether or not they have these documents is telling. What is in these documents is also telling.
  • If you don't have it written down, it is being interpreted differently across the organization.
  • You must have definitions that are understood throughout your company.
  • If sales missing their number, marketing isn't successful either. We are in this together.
  • There is a direct correlation between increased sophistication in alignment of sales and marketing systems and a higher likelihood of hitting revenue goals.
  • You can never have full measurement and attribution of everything.
  • B2B marketing is more complex. There are more steps & more people on both sides. It's hard to get statistical significance. You must go off your gut often.
  • B2B sales are lower volume, higher value deals.
  • Pre-pandemic, 11% of purchases were online. At the height of the pandemic it was 15%. It's going back down now.
  • The majority of purchase are still off-line. We are not in a digital world, we are in omni-channel. The buyer still wants to talk to a human.
  • We need to leverage human connection at right place and right time in the buying journey.
  • How do you move marketing from interruptible to irresistible? How do you create marketing people enthusiastically want to engage with?
  • If you have a community of prospective customers that want to spend time with you, it's invaluable to you as a brand and it's competitively impossible for you to replace.
  • Definitions and economics can go a long way to creating operational alignment.
  • Definitions - What is our addressable market? Who are the best prospects in these organizations? What does a lead mean? When someone is ready to buy?
  • Economics - What is it worth for us to close the business? What are we defining as success? What are we willing to spend to acquire a customer?
  • A team wins and loses together.

Links:

How to reach Matt:
 
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Transcript:

Adam Kerpelman:

My mother-in-law sent a lovely note to my mother regarding a loss in the family and man, the whole thing was written in impeccable cursive. Then I was journaling the next day going, "Oh geez." Somewhere around eighth grade, they were like, "You can just print for the rest of your life if you want," which says something about, I guess, my handwriting skills, but.

Matt Heinz:

Yeah, my first grade teacher... I think it was first grade, maybe third grade. I don't know. I had a teacher... I feel like I remember this meeting where they were like, "I'm really worried about your son..." This is a parent-teacher meeting, "Really worried your son's going to have just horrible handwriting." I remember thinking, well, A, I'm in the first grade, how can you know that? B, I'm offended, though there's no way that's going to happen. I know this just audio, but if you could see my handwriting now, you would know that she is some kind of a prophet, future seeing my writing is horrible. It's sort of cursive. It's awful. My kids are starting to... They're all learning cursive and I think it's a lost art.

Adam Kerpelman:

Hey everybody, this is the Data-Driven Marketer sponsored by NetWise. I'm Adam.

Brian Jones:

I'm Brian.

Matt Heinz:

I'm Matt.

Adam Kerpelman:

Welcome back for another hang in the Data Basement. Thank you for joining us and special thanks to our guest this week, Matt Heinz, who is the president of Heinz Marketing, author and host of another podcast, Sales Pipeline Radio, which I realized I didn't confess beforehand, that I also listen to so.

Matt Heinz:

Awesome, okay cool.

Adam Kerpelman:

We have another host who does the podcast. Occasionally he has a really specific thing he wants to talk to you about sometime, which I don't want to ruin it for him, but we'll have to have you come back to talk about the ROI on Google search ads.

Matt Heinz:

Oh boy.

Adam Kerpelman:

He's been in your comments fighting with some people lately.

Matt Heinz:

Stick the wick in.

Adam Kerpelman:

But yeah, thanks for joining us. Otherwise, I'll go ahead and throw to you, Matt, for a little bit of your background for the listener.

Matt Heinz:

Yeah no appreciate. I am also recording this from my basement. This little corner of our dug in basement has become a comfortable place last year and a half. And yeah, my name's Matt Heinz started a company called Heinz marketing about 13 years ago. We're in bar speak, we help companies sell their stuff. We help companies organize a marketing driven revenue responsible approach to driving velocity, predictability, and scalability of new pipeline in closed business and complex selling situations. And like you said, I'm a journalist by trade. So when I started the business, didn't have money for marketing. We've just been doing content for forever. So got a blog, got the podcast, been doing some video series on LinkedIn, written a couple books and yeah, just kind of having fun with it.

Brian Jones:

Very cool.

Adam Kerpelman:

We all so met ultimately... Well, we met for the first time, right before we started recording this, but we have crossed paths in another community where you're kind of the ringleader of keeping the thing going, which I don't want to talk too much about, but I really enjoy it.

Matt Heinz:

Good.

Adam Kerpelman:

So that's a rabbit hole we could for sure chase, just talking about community in general and how it's sort of distinct from all this stuff. But I think what we're all more stoked to talk about this time is the relationship between the sales and marketing departments ultimately. Yeah, well, I think maybe the first thing to call out is for, for me and Brian, our context is in B2B. So everything is in a way amplified sometimes compared to what you might have for sales and marketing at a consumer goods company or something. Also, I guess we're talking about to do digital space, right.?

Matt Heinz:

And I think you could argue that consumer marketers, I would argue in many cases are far more advanced. I think their use of analytics, their use of data, their use of intent signals. I mean, and this isn't new, this is stuff they've been doing forever. So I think it's far more interesting in most cases, but I think we're starting to catch up a little bit. I think that the data we have available to us as sellers, our ability to create a seamless experience digitally and offline with the data that we have across, not just sales and marketing, but customer success and account management and anybody in your organization, that's building value and communicating with your prospects and customers. So we're getting better. And I think some of that is about the data. Some of that is about sort of just the hand to hand tactical coordination between these groups as well.

Brian Jones:

Yeah, you touched on a piece that's that's core to me. And I, I mentioned this when we were chatting ahead of time, but it's rare that I have a guest where I'm adamant that a specific topic would help today with work I'm doing right. So you mentioned customer success, all these other teams that really come into play with the idea of marketing these days. Because the concept... It's almost the term I feel like is being redefined to be more expansive. Adam's role is actually coms when we hired him and marketing in my mind is kind of a piece of the coms. It's part of how we're communicating and all these teams drive value, like you said, and how that becomes coordinated, how those teams collaborate, where they overlap, how you hand off, especially in a like a data driven situation where you have software and systems and processes and database decisions. How do you coordinate all of that? It's not just the old school sales closes the marketing brings them in sales close them, there's so much more subtilty.

Adam Kerpelman:

It's not strictly a relay anymore.

Brian Jones:

Yeah, I've described it before as a relay and it's not really, it's kind of like, but then we also have to run together for three laps. And then at the very end, I'll hand it off to you for one last lap.

Matt Heinz:

You hold the baton together for a lap?

Brian Jones:

Right. Awkward.

Matt Heinz:

Yeah, I think it's definitely more of a team sport than an individual sport. And I think it's a team sport where you have to play together. I mean, you can say like a relay race everyone's working together, but everyone has their segments and there's a very clear handoff. I don't think we work like that in B2B anymore. I mean, I think you used to think about... No one can see this as I hold my hands up, I used to think about the funnel as sort of split horizontally between sales and marketing. Marketing owns the top sales owns the bottom, there's a handoff of a lead or whatever and we're done. I think now that that funnel is really split far more vertically where in those complex selling situations sales gets involved earlier, marketing is involved far later in the deal.

Matt Heinz:

I think. And I've seen some organizations where marketing is spending far less time budget and resources on demand generation and far more on sales enablement because of the maturity of their market or the size of their pipeline in addressable market. So I think that collaboration is required now in most organizations we're working with it is... Let's not pretend it's easy. Let's not pretend it's easy to define let alone operationalize, but it very much is sort of that one plus one equals three situation to get greater yield, velocity, and predictability out of your sales efforts.

Brian Jones:

How do you start to evaluate that at an organization? How do you identify what the groups are and how they hand off and where they overlap? There's there's so much, I find there's so much customization based on how the company thinks about themselves and then actually how they actually do things and then what software they use in systems and then even just the individuals.

Matt Heinz:

Yeah. I mean, when we talk to a new company and sort of try to assess the level of sales and marketing integration that they currently have, we ask to see a couple examples of things. We ask to see, please show us your defined ICP, ideal customer profile and how you guys have defined and documented sort of the buying committee and the buying journey associated with that? And then send us whatever is documented around the sales playbook. How do you engage with people across that, especially the beginning part of that process, whether they have, or don't have those documents is telling. What's in those documents is also telling, well, here's our version, but sales has their own version that is telling as well.

Matt Heinz:

So you can assess a certain level of sort of how well sales and marketing integration has been operationalized. And I'm sure you guys have never heard this before. Where you say like, "Hey, can you send me your ICP? Send me your ideal customer profile definition." So, well, I don't have it, but let me tell you to you. Its like, if you don't have it written down, I know this sounds parochial, but if you don't have it written down, I guarantee you, it is being interpreted differently across your organization. So yeah. We really do need to write it down. Someone needs to complain tat it's inaccurate and then we can resolve all that. But this is where marketing says, "Oh, these are good leads." And sales says, "They're not." Well, this comes down to definitions my friends. Either marketing's generating too much crap or sales isn't willing to sell to people that may need a little sort of status quo changing. But you've got a problem there, fundamentally that isn't going to go away, unless you do the work.

Adam Kerpelman:

Yeah, in marketing, I spend a lot of time currently asking sales, but why is it bad? And then trying to build systems so they can do that without me having to ask, why it's bad. Well, there's an interesting aspect of that, that we talk about often and I think it's why we sometimes present it as what's happening out in the market is ultimately that marketing is eating sales. I think that's not the most generous way to put it. We really should say it's cross breeding with sales or something to make it sound honestly sexier.

Matt Heinz:

Or just weird.

Brian Jones:

Or just weird.

Adam Kerpelman:

Well, part of what you're talking about is ultimately this piece of, sales may be good at defining that customer profile, but they're not necessarily as good at applying it to the storytelling piece. So it ends up being marketing who comes in and goes, we need to all understand the same story of who we're selling to here. And that's kind of the underlying exercise with an ICP, sprint or whatever you want to call it, right?

Matt Heinz:

Yeah.

Adam Kerpelman:

So a lot of times it's marketing just going, tell that to me again so I can understand it and then eventually going, okay, this is the one in the middle. Everybody stop making up new ones.

Matt Heinz:

And I think that if we think of it as sort of marketing eating sales, this isn't someone wins and someone loses. We all win and we all lose together. If sales misses their number, then by definition marketing, wasn't successful either. And it gets even more complicated in a product led growth company where you're doing either snackable starters or freemium or free trials. And sort of now you have to sort of take this buying journey that hopefully marketing is championing and defining and sort of creating integration between product marketing sales, account management. I mean, your coordination problem gets exponentially harder. But if you can figure out components of that, you're doing really well. I want to point out one other thing though, is for people listening to this and think, oh, this is a really high mountain. I got to climb.

Matt Heinz:

Ultimately, yes it is. But there was some data on... A company called Demand Metric did some research a couple years ago and they looked at the correlation between integration of sales and marketing systems and the likelihood of those companies hitting their revenue targets. And they found a direct correlation between the increased sophistication and alignment of sales and marketing systems and a higher likelihood of hitting their revenue targets. But what's interesting wasn't just that correlation. It was the data set. So the data they looked at, wasn't just no integration to minimal integration, to moderate integration, to advanced. It went from no integration to ineffective integration, to minimal, moderate, and advanced. And it was still an up and to the right directly. So what that data tells me is that if you buy into all of this, we need to get the well defined ICP, we need to make sure we all agree on who we're selling to. If you start from nothing and then go to doing a shitty job, you're still moving forward. By trying to do this and failing, and then fixing it, you're still going to see better results.

Adam Kerpelman:

First coming with the data set, it's speaking our language around here. Yeah, like my journey into marketing was through the arts. Like a lot of people, it's the arts and crafts, that was me all the way I went to film school. So I'm sure you've heard the phrase, the obstacle is the way. There's a whole book, kind of about that thinking, but in art school, you, lot of, they call them obstruction exercises where the point is tell the same story three ways, here are the limitations for each way. And one of them will be like, you're not allowed to move the camera. One of them is like, you're not allowed to edit, stuff like that. It just the exercise of trying to coordinate this stuff, it sounds from that at dataset makes people better. So it doesn't even matter if you don't find the right tools or the right software or whatever. The fact of the interdepartmental conversation it forces is the value prop alone.

Matt Heinz:

Yep. We talk to a lot of companies that are really stressing about having full attribution data of their complex deals. Right. And they're like, I'm sure I'm missing something. I'm sure... Of course, you're missing something. You will always be missing something you will never... And sometime 10 years from now, when robots are selling to robots, someone's going to prove me wrong if they hear this podcast. But I just don't think you're ever going to have full attribution of everything. So it's not about the report, it's about the intent. Knowing that your white paper download, didn't generate the eight figure deal, knowing that the booth scan from five years ago, shouldn't be given full credit for closing the deal now. I mean, knowing that there's a body of work in the middle there that's got to work, knowing that you can't look at individual channels and assign a really valuable cost per lead, I don't care about cost per lead. I care about cost per opportunity. I care about cost per close one.

Matt Heinz:

I want to know what I'm willing to spend and then work back to get to the body of work, to get there. And am I going to be able to measure and attribute all of it? No, but in a complex selling environment, you have to think about it as a body of work versus individual components of a campaign.

Brian Jones:

I love how you put that.

Adam Kerpelman:

I spend a lot of time in meetings, stressing the idea of... Even within data. Look, even if you want to keep it data science sort of linguistically or methodologically or whatever, there is margin of error. And in our world of marketing in particular, it's just going to be squishier than most people would like. And so, even as you go through these conversations, sometimes you have to go to sales and say, yeah but that number is 20% squishy, so if we go from a 100 to 80, don't get worried yet. A lot of times they see that and go, that's 20% less leads.

Brian Jones:

That's especially relevant for B2B marketers. And this has come up on previous episodes, but B2B is inherently more complex. There's more people on both sides. There are more steps. There's more information, consumer marketing in some cases when it's really simple, you can get statist significance. You can really truly run... You can operationalize a digital funnel and have numbers make some of the decisions for you. But it's almost never in B2B where you can truthfully automate a decision fully and know that you're really making a huge impact into something you're doing. It's hard work and you got to off your gut a lot, I find. Which is frustrating, because it's not what the internet at large wants you to believe about marketing, certainly modern digital marketing, right? It feels like you [crosstalk 00:16:02].

Adam Kerpelman:

Money machine, yeah.

Brian Jones:

Right, where's the dial I get to turn to do my job? But it doesn't work that way.

Matt Heinz:

So we had earlier today, as we record, I did a LinkedIn live with Frank Cespedes and he's a lecturer at Harvard Business School. And he wrote a book about sales management earlier this year and we were talking about this increasingly digital world and how even if it's more digital, how do we put human into the digital? And he said, "Well, let me challenge you on the increasingly digital." So the increasingly guess, but he said, if you go and ask someone just what percent of purchases just generally in the world are done online and we're including Amazon we're including everything you can do online pre-pandemic. What do you guys think that number would be? What percent of purchases are online?

Brian Jones:

15?

Adam Kerpelman:

Oh really? I was going to higher probably like 55?

Matt Heinz:

Yeah. I was going to, I mean, I was with you, I was going to go something like increase to 35, 40. Pre-pandemic, it was 11%. At the height of the pandemic, it got to 15 and it's been going back down. So he says you can argue about methodology and data all you want but if this is generally true, the majority of our purchases, vast majority are still [having 00:17:22] offline. He says, we are not in a digital eat retail world, we're in an omnichannel world. And this numbers will continue, I think, to creep up. But the fact that it's still in the teens was interesting to me. And I think that there's like, oh yeah, we can sell enterprise products online. It's like, yeah sure, people will research. But I think, if we're using AI to try to approximate real people, real human connections, this is telling me that the buyer still wants to talk to a human.

Matt Heinz:

The buyer still wants to be validated by having a human interaction. So AI intent data, giving us better insights to have more relevant conversations, I don't need to send 10,000 direct mail pieces this week. I should send 18 because these 18 recipients are in exactly the right place to receive that information correctly, that's the best use of data. I think even as we grow our business, we're 13 years in, we finally just this year hired our first biz dev person. I think a lot about not just how many dials is she making and how many... I don't care about her activity volume. I want to say, how do I maximize her time? How do I make sure she is engaging with accounts and leads at exactly the right time?

Matt Heinz:

I've got digital tools that can nurture and score people and get them direct access ungated to the information they want. When is the time when they need a human to talk to. And, I think that that optimization to leverage the human connection at exactly the right place at the right time in the buying journey. That's a place I think we all need to be focused on getting to.

Adam Kerpelman:

Well, and I think it's more important with B2B because you're dealing with lower volume, higher value use cases or deals, I guess we should call them. So like we said, that squishiness isn't going to go away. But then inside of that, squishiness, you have this thing, that's sort of like, I'm resisting falling down the community rabbit hole. Like I like to do right now. Because I mean ultimately yeah, we're here to talk about data driven marketing, but the reality is it hits a point where you're still ultimately the people... Marketing and sales are both the ones talking to the customers. And, the cool thing, some of those tools, aren't about data and the way that you think, traditionally, I think because like you're saying, they're starting to be tools that don't matter for the consumer side as much because you can just overwhelm the need for signal there with volume.

Adam Kerpelman:

I hit 5 million people with that ad, I'm going to have a pretty good understanding of whether or not that copy worked. If my subset is way tinier and way more niche, then you're so low now that's like, I can tell you that copy was good, but only to within 10%. And so the tests you end up running instead are more... Are let's send t-shirts to everyone we have a sales call with, for a year and see if our close rate is higher or something. And it starts to be not... Like a little less marketing and a little more, how do you make people feel good about your brand? In a way that, again, it's nothing new. It's just that we all have to do it now. Everyone out there can and should I think of their brand more like Nike than sort of traditionally small businesses have been able to, because you can do your own media, you can have a podcast, you can have a personality, you can create a world where maybe people aren't even using your shoes because they're the best, they're just cool.

Matt Heinz:

Yeah and there's the brand play there that if you're Nike, if you're a CPG company you're certainly playing on, but you bring up something else that is about how do you move your marketing from being interruptive to being irresistible? How do you create a marketing that people enthusiastically want to receive and engage with? How do you how do you create a channel so you're no longer renting attention from other people that have it, but you're earning and owning it yourself? I mean like podcasts, content channels. I mean everybody can create a content channel now that may not generate pipeline for you next month. It's going to take time and effort to sort of build that community. But I mean just Adam, you mentioned sort of the CMO community that's taken a long time to sort of build up.

Matt Heinz:

But if you have a community of your perspective, customers that want to spend time with you, that can't wait for Friday morning so they can get another call with their peers and talk about the latest and greatest of whatever. I mean, not only is that invaluable to you as a brand, but so it is competitively impossible to replace. You could give a competitor a list of all the people that are in that community, but they could not recreate the community.

Brian Jones:

Yeah, that's a great point.

Adam Kerpelman:

Well, it, it ends up being an attention economy thing. I only have so much time to do things with, and if there's a community that I'm consistently getting value out of for an hour a week, you got that hour. So it's unvarnished time to have access to ideally the people that you're talking about, it's just... Anyway, this is the community rabbit hole I could talk about forever, because it's really tricky. And I spent the last year working in open source stuff with Blockchain and everything I was working on was fully community driven. So people are busy going product led growth is amazing, wait till they discover community led growth because it's a completely different thing. You don't even have to make up your features. You just go and you ask your 5,000 true fans, "Hey, what do you want us to build?"

Adam Kerpelman:

And they go, this and then you go, cool. And you build it. And then they yell at you the whole time if it's... Troll you the whole time, if it's not what they actually wanted.

Brian Jones:

That's hilarious.

Adam Kerpelman:

But no, so I'd like to kind of jump back to talking about the cooperation between the departments and sort of I'm curious what you think the fundamental struggles that emerge there are because there's an interesting aspect of eating to create the communication and an understanding of the extent to which these two sort of formerly separate groups are now working together. At the same time, there are unavoidable conflicts of interests and unavoidable sort of adversarial relationships. Sales is always going to blame marketing for bad leads and marketing is going to always blame sales for not closing the leads and it's just kind of never going to go away because humans get in the system and then they human about it all. So, that's a part of it. But then it gets a little more practical also because you look at the top and budget allocation and everybody is in the end fighting for money so they can continue to survive as a department. That aspect of the tension is kind of never going to go away, so how you build trust I guess between them?

Matt Heinz:

A couple ways. I mean, my history is coming from the marketing side and I feel comfortable saying a lot of this alignment challenge is marketing's fault because we have come to the table all of a sudden we show up one day and say, we should be revenue responsible too. We should have the same definitions and market sales is going there, well thank you for... I mean I literally, couple years ago had a company that they didn't understand... CMO didn't understand why sales didn't trust them. And it was the last day of the month or it was the last week of the quarter or something like that. And sales they're grinding it out, trying to finish the quarter are strong, trying to get those last couple deals across the line.

Matt Heinz:

And I was meeting with the CMO and they're like, "Yeah, we really need to work on our relationship. I need to figure out how to get sales to trust us." And he says, "Oh, I got to go." I said, "Well, where are you going?" He says, "Well, the whole marketing team, we're going down to the bar to celebrate that we hit our retweet goal for the month." I'm like, that might be part of the problem. If your sales team is grinding it out and you guys are celebrating a metric that... And this may very well be optics, I don't mean to poo poo retweets, because there's an awful lot of value in sort of, as we were talking about, building a community, building an audience, driving engagement, those are building blocks for the business. But if, as marketers you think you're done, when you got your retweet goal, what I would rather see is if there's a deal that's going to make or break your quarter and there's one member of the buying committee that isn't quite bought off yet.

Matt Heinz:

And if there's a piece of content that would help them reduce that obstacle. So they would sign and say yes, would your marketing team be willing to get into that war room with sales and create content for an audience of one? The most evident efficient metric that volume-based marketers can think [inaudible 00:26:08] what? But if that one piece of content compelled that deal to close, wouldn't that be one of the most valuable things you could do that week? So I think that there's a historical perspective that sales brings that says marketing is not a partner. You're not going to solve that with one act, you're going to solve that with a body of work. The other thing that I think is getting in the way of this is, who gets credit? The attribution issue, was this a sales generated deal or was this a marketing generated deal?

Matt Heinz:

And the fact of the matter in complex selling situations, yes, to all. It's going to be a bunch of great content, it's going to be a bunch of good marketing, it's going to be a bunch of great selling. This is a team sport. The best teams in the world, I think about sports teams, they may have a couple superstars, but it's a team effort. Matt Hasselback we're here in Seattle, Matt Hasselback was inducted into the ring of honor for the Seahawks yesterday. And he's the guy who's going to have his name and number on the stadium. But in his speech, he said, "This is for everybody, my teammates, my coaches, the locker room attendance, everybody that made it possible for me to be up there, this is a team effort."

Matt Heinz:

And selling in complex situations is exactly the same. And so that's the approach you have to take strategically to say, yeah, we need to know what's working and what's not. But if we forget about credit and simply think about, how do we get these deals across the line? Now we can start to do the things together that can build that trust and rapport long term to make that relationship work.

Brian Jones:

Another great answer to a complex question and something that we run a lot, because we've gone through a pretty crazy transformation here as a business internally. Two years ago, we only made fantastically complex sales to big enterprise customers like huge customers and over the last two years, we launched a SaaS product and hired a marketing team and started selling digitally online product led growth. And so that transition for everybody's mindset has been just rapid and challenging and completely different space now. And what we keep seeing and you articulate this really well. It's the time to having an effect, a lot of the time, I think, the marketing team comes into an organization or someone you hire to lead the team comes in and says, "Well, here's my long term strategy." And a lot of what they do may not do anything functional for the bottom line for years, but they also can't spend all their time just helping to close one deal.

Brian Jones:

And so you end up with a really challenging question of, well, what's the balance? And also we need to really clearly all be articulating well, this effort's going to take this amount of time to help over this time period. And then calculating that and again, when you layer in the data driven part now you're like, well, this is all too complex to actually run numbers on. So you're back to making some gut decisions. So it's a lot more complexity layered, a lot of numbers, a lot of dials to worry about.

Matt Heinz:

Well, and it's knowing what you can and can't measure knowing what's important. I mean, I've had someone told me once they said, there's a inverse correlation between the ease with which you can get to a metric and the importance it has to your business. So what that tells me is the most important metrics are the ones that are going to be the hardest to actually identify if not impossible, given the data and the tools that you have. And there's some really smart CMOs and marketing teams and rev op teams that are doing things around using Power BI and using some data sort of illustration tools to sort of get to sort of some better answers. But usually don't get to the answers. It's kind of like reading a Dan Brown novel or watching, if anyone's watching, the Lost Symbol on Peacock. It's like they keep finding another clue and it's not the answer, it's a clue with [X 00:29:57] clue.

Matt Heinz:

But you're getting closer and you're learning along the way and you're getting smarter about how to make decisions. Because the data isn't going to close business for you. The data and insights you're looking for are going to help you make better decisions about what to do next. And it's okay to sometimes say what I've seen is not a perfect, complete picture, but it's helping me make better decisions. It's increasing my conversion and win rate on those new ideas because they're more educated and informed now.

Brian Jones:

So what do you see as the right things for these teams to coalesce around? And I say things because I think a lot of the time people want to throw metric out. Let's coalesce around, I don't know, calls per lead or days to close. I think there's a lot more, or for these teams to coordinate around, it's not just a number. There probably are some numbers that are relevant. It's also meeting styles or coordination methods or communication styles. Is there a process or a handful of things that you would say to a team that's really trying to work hard on bridging these gaps in coordinating these teams, what do they start with?

Matt Heinz:

Definitions and economics. So definitions, meaning like what is our addressable market and who are the best prospects for us within that addressable market? What's your ideal customer profile? More definitions. Who are the people within those organizations? What roles do they play as part of the buying committee? So if I sit here and say right company, right person at that company, we can get to what to say to them later, but we have to start with what companies do we want to sell to? And who are the people that we're willing to engage with those companies? More definitions. What does it mean to be a lead that's were sales following up with? Honestly, I don't even think that much about MQLs anymore, marketing qualified leads, the way they're defined in most organizations, it's a vanity metric. When I've got a person at a company that is ready for a sales interaction, what does that mean? What is that definition? And it's going to be different for different companies, but those are some of the definitions I want to have in place.

Matt Heinz:

And the second is the economics, what is it worth for us to generate a qualified opportunity from someone in that ICP? What is it worth for us to get that closed business? And there's a reason you got to think about the economics of this. One is I don't want to argue about three extra cent on the cost per click, on a marketing campaign. I want to know that I'm willing to spend up to a certain amount to acquire a client and also in a PLG motion or in a land and expand motion your closed deal, your closed one may be a fraction of the value of that prospect. And so we were talking earlier about sort of, not the sales funnel, but the revenue bow tie, you got a deal that could be worth a hundred thousand a year and you just close $2,000 in revenue? That ain't close one, that's a sales stage, my friend. That might be your sales qualified lead.

Matt Heinz:

I'm serious. I've seen some companies are starting to look at getting a free trial or getting a freemium or sort of doing the initial purchase, that's the SQL. It's not a closed one until you achieve X percent of the deal's potential value. So in thinking about, what are we defining as success? What do the economics look like in terms of those different stages and what they're worth to us? And this may be a conversation. You got to get your CFO to come in. I can't tell you how many CMOs go to the CFO and say, what are you willing to spend to acquire a customer that's going to give us this much lifetime value or this much in first year? And what about enterprise versus mid-market, how do you think about the model? CFOs are like, you're in marketing, you're asking this question? First of all, that's amazing, let's keep talking. So again the definitions and economics can go along ways towards creating the foundation for operational alignment moving forward.

Adam Kerpelman:

What I heard from your previous answer was also, you should not celebrate the wrong metrics outwardly. I'm mean it's important to celebrate among your team, I don't mean don't go to the bar. Just don't let sales know that you went to the bar because you got 10,000 retweets.

Matt Heinz:

Look, it's okay. I mean, marketing can celebrate higher click rates and retweets and impressions because I mean, like I said, these are all building blocks. It's no different than sales saying like, "Hey, congrats. You made a hundred dials yesterday." Or like, "Hey BDR team, you set 40 appointments this week." So 40 appointments is the sales version of, I got a bunch of white paper downloads. Those may or may not be valuable if they're for the right people then fine, but you can't buy a beer with any of those metrics. So there are building blocks to marketing, there are building blocks to sales that are important. I guess it's like, what is the means? What is the ends? And making sure that you're really clear on what those differences are, is critical to making this work.

Adam Kerpelman:

And I'll say the last thing before we bring this thing in for landing to your point about how marketers don't like to make one to one content, essentially, that's one that I always push back on with the marketers that I talk to, because I understand how they feel that way, but that doesn't strike me as the appropriate digital perspective. Because if you can use that one to one conversation to make a template, then you never have to have it again. Just think of it that way. And you're just always creating. I mean, there's content, but then there's the template for the content. If you can create a template instead of the content, then you're building algorithms now instead of just thinking about another deck.

Brian Jones:

Yeah, this brings me back to something again that I keep seeing and this is partly because I'm coming at a lot of this from the engineering perspective, but I more and more think of a modern marketing team as the engineering team for the sales team. Look at the projects that are happening, look at the things that are being done repetitively and start to automate them, extract conversations and turn it into content. Extract processes and put it inside software and it's not so much that marketing is eating sales. It's that marketing is consuming and automating the annoying things and opening up these sales people who usually are in that role, because they're fantastic at socializing. They love talking to people and uncovering ideas in a social setting and they get energy from that work, it's enabling them to do what they like more instead of all the tedious stuff. So that dynamic works so well, I think, when you start to see, hey, how are we helping each other? How are we making other's jobs more interesting and have more fun day to day?

Matt Heinz:

The team wins and loses together. But people on that team are going to have different roles. If all of a sudden you need a base hit to drive in a run and then the bottom of the ninth, you're probably not going to bring in a relief pitcher to hit. So I mean you've got different roles in different people on the team. And so I mean, in the future, are we still going to have a marketing department and a sales department? I think. Just because we're asking them to work together more closely doesn't mean you don't have specialized skills, but I think it's important to realize that to your point your sales team should not be prospecting. Your sales team should not be having to create their own bespoke content on their own individually.

Matt Heinz:

There are things that I think if your marketing team is the voice of the customer understands the buying journey and can use the data we have, use the insights, use the use intent data to bring sales fewer leads, but educated, motivated, ready to engage leads. That's what sales wants and then let sales work their magic, with your continued guidance from a content process and systems standpoint. Yeah, it's not a marketing eat sales, we need each other to be successful in a predictable way moving forward.

Brian Jones:

Love it.

Adam Kerpelman:

Feels like a pretty good place to wrap up.

Brian Jones:

Great summary.

Adam Kerpelman:

Yeah. This thanks for joining us, Matt. This was great.

Matt Heinz:

My pleasure, this was fun.

Adam Kerpelman:

Where can people find you around the interwebs?

Matt Heinz:

On the interwebs, just Heinz marketing, HEINZ like the ketchup, marketing.com. We got a ton of great content. We got a bunch of research. So check that out. You can find me on LinkedIn. My email's, Matt, MATT at Heinz marketing dot com, would look forward to hearing from anybody.

Brian Jones:

Awesome.

Adam Kerpelman:

Awesome. And you can find us on Twitter at data driven pod. It's probably the best rabbit hole to start down. Otherwise, this been another episode of the Data Driven Marketer. I'm Adam.

Brian Jones:

I'm Brian.

Matt Heinz:

I'm Matt.

Brian Jones:

Take it easy, everybody.